Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

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Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby Ediros » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:56 pm

Well, I have decided to make this discussion as a sort of way to see, how we can improve this game.

As much as we like BoF, the games are not perfect and some of the things that were included could be a bit better.

That is why, I would love to hear your opinion, while posting some of the ideas of my own. So, here we go.

1.Story Progression and locations:
-The story will progress pretty much the same due to certain crucial events, that have to happen to progress the story.

-The events leading up to the McNeil mansion are all the same.

-The crucial event is when Balio and Sunder show up. In order for the story to progress Ryu and others have to be defeated by them.

-One could make it so, this turns into a cut scene without giving you a chance to fight. However, that feels cheap. So, I would make it so, that the duo gets a massive boost to damage and finish you of in the next few turns (like a battle with Garr).

-Or, we lock the levels, so that Rei and others cannot progress further into the story (let's say level 15). If we combine this with the previous point, it would make it seem much more fair and make it so that if you hold against them for a few turns then you will receive a few seeds of AP.

-Of course, there is a possibility of making it so that you can actually WIN against them. However, that brings a ton of problems, which would make it so like most of the story would have to be rewritten. If Ryu and others kill Balio and Sunder then the story cannot progress. I would rather keep it the way it is.

-Now, moving on to the mountain and Wyndia. I really despise how there are many locations that once they served their purpose are abandoned forever. Like the mountain, where you fight Nue, the mountain Ryu goes across and many others. I will get to them later on in the story, okay?

-For now, it will serve the purpose like it did in the original game. Ryu will be captured and taken to Wyndia. There things go the same, until we reach the dungeon. There Ryu has got a rematch with Balio and Sunder. Here, I would shake things up a bit. I would give 3 outcomes to this scenario.

-First is like the Vanilla, you lose and get revived by Nina. Second is, if you heal Nina and manage to stand up to them for a few turns. In that case you get a tiny bit of exp, but nothing more. However, I would give a third option. If you both heal Nina and manage to deal at least 100 damage to any of them, the battle with the Stallion would be a bit easier before they run away.

-Moving on, the story goes pretty much the same, until we reach the plant. This part of the game is annoying, but the biggest issue is the music (which, I had enough of after 3rd playthrough) and the conveyors. I would make it so, once you reach the middle of it, you activate another conveyor and you can get there without going all the way around.

-Anyway, once that is done and we get to the contest of champions, I would like to give some new things to this part. I will keep defeating those guys, who stand in lava and beating Emitai first, so the golems go berserk. However, I really despise, how Ryu has to lose again, due to a programming. I get that the battle has to be tough, but seriously hopeless boss fight is one of those things I would rather avoid.

-So, instead of Garr straight out beating Ryu I will give 2 outcomes. One, you lose, because you lost too fast. The second one, is if you manage to last at least a few turns and Garr gives a reward (like Shield of Flame or something). This is supposed to be an encouragement to try to stay strong as long as you can. Of course, there is a possibility of Ryu actually winning, but since we know what Balio and Sunder would do to Ryu and others if they won, we will not do that – they would cheat them, again.

-Anyway, so here is the third thing. I would give the opportunity to talk to Garr and explain to him, what is going on. The battle would then commence, but once you lose on purpose, Garr and others free one of the prisoners and leave. He would then give you a few vitamins for journey and leave. So, this way you can actually see the game react a bit.

-Moving on, we get to Balio and Sunder, who will try to stop us again. Now, if you managed to hurt them them, the Stallion will lose a part of it's HP or something. So, we kill them and then move on back to Wyndia. Once again, the story stays mostly the same.

-That is until we reach, the Rhapala. This place is nothing more, but a time sink. I never came back there or to the damn lighthouse once I was finished. There is nothing to do and it doesn't develop the story much. I am not against the parts of the story, but I hate the lighthouse. The enemies there are annoying (especially the wraith). An easy fix to most of the encounters will be explained later on in the story.

-Moving on, we go through the volcano and reach the angel tower. There things progress as they did and vanilla, before the time skip happens. Garr finds Ryu in the mines and things go from there. Now, the story moves on, until we reach the McNeil village.

-Remember, how I mentioned, pointless locations? Well, here we get to the mountain, where we beat Nue. I would not be against putting an optional monster, that we could beat for some money, experience or something. It would be nice if, the village of McNeil was at least a bit happy for that.

-Anyway, moving on, the story stays the same, until we reach The plant and Momo again. I really would like to see, some of the things that happened during the time-skip, like some short cutscene, why Ryu is still considered criminal. I think it would be nice to have some more background about characters.

-As we move back to Urkan region and find out about Deis, things stay the same. I am honestly not against story staying the same, until we reach the beach, where we search for parts. Anyway, moving we go into the ocean and promptly return, due to weather. Then we reach Rhapala and find out about the legendary mariner.

-Here comes one of the worst parts of the game, at least to me. SHISU QUEST. I really dislike it, as it only serves the purpose of Time Sink. It breaks the pace and I would rather scrap it completely than keep it. Anyway, we move on, board the Black Ship and set out for another world.

-Things progress pretty much the same from here, until we reach the Desert of Death. This part of the game, had a mistake in translation and made it really hard to actually finish. It is really annoying, but I would still keep it. Maybe, a bit shorter and fixed the translation. From here on, the story stays the same, until very end.

2.Gameplay and Balance:

a)Monsters and other related things:

-Instead of having a random number generator decide about encounters I would make it similar to Persona 4 Golden. Where enemies will go around the area and will chase you, if they notice you. However, if you are fast or careful you can avoid them. Makes it much less tedious.

-And add more interactions to some of the monsters. Blinding Eye Goo, destroying armour of the mist man were nice. But I wish there were more of them. It would make the combat much more dynamic.

b)Balance and Grind:

1.Make the power food, protein and other stat increasing items much easier to get or through alternate means. The only way you can get them is by using a copy shop, gift shop or grinding monsters. Neither of which is really fast or effective. At the end of the game, I had like 100k Zenny and nothing to do with it. It would be nice if we could buy those seeds for a big price, but much easier to get.

2.I would rebalance the Dragon Gene System. What I mean, by this is to make it, a bit similar to Breath of Fire 4. No, I don't mean cutscenes or the same scaly dude in each form. What I mean is make it better for long engagements, but worse, for short skirmishes. To put it simply, I would double all the initial values of transformation cost, but gave the upkeep a 1/8 of the original price. And round up the rest.
For example:

Dragon Form;;; Vanilla Cost + upkeep;;;;New cost + upkeep;;;;Ap for 10 turns - vanilla;;;;;; Ap for 10 turns - new

Tiamat ;;;; 13+7 ;;; 26 + 4 ;;;; 76 ;;;;; 62;;;;
Kaiser ;;;; 53 + 27 ;;; 106 + 14 ;;;; 296 ;;;; 232 ;;;;


3.Intelligence Rebalance and more uses:
a)To put it simply, I would remake it whole, also, increasing the max stats to 1000

Magic Damage Formula:
result = [random base * (1 - ( [defender's int (capped at 250) / 5] * 5 / 500))]

where random base is from the random variation step, and the defender's int is just that, the Int stat of the defender, but even if the defender's Int stat is above 250, it will only use 250 in the equation making the maximum amount resisted (from int) 50%, and it divides by 5 (flooring) and then multiplies by five to make sure that only Int values that are multiples of 5 have any effect, so an int of 24 would only resist the amount that 20 does (4%).

So, let's say you use mjolnir with 999 int at the enemy with 250 int.
It will deal around 1100 / 2 =550. So, the magic damage is good early on, but falls off so hard, you are better of not bothering with it. It would need a whole remake.

Instead, I would do this:And this one is something that I think would work nicely.

Basically split the intelligence into Might and Will. The will would give protection against spells, while also increasing chance for guts. They could have different Caps. Like Will at 100 and then it would give 100% chance for guts, while also reducing the damage of the spell. And we could make it so, the will is hard to increase, so you would not be able to max it, unless you grinded or something. (And of course, it wouldn't have given guts most of the enemies, with few exceptions).

Might would be responsible for magical damage and whether you can recover AP during the fight.

b)Give the intelligence a second use. So, let's say Nina gets 200 Intelligence through spells, items, stat increasing items, whatever. Once that happens she would start to regenerate magic at the start of each turn at the pace of Int/100. So even if you had 1000 int, you would only regenerate 10 Ap per turn. However with Ryu, it would be extremely beneficial, allowing him to use dragon forms more freely and giving mage Ryu a good late game.
Sure, he will not be as strong as fighter Ryu, but he will have much higher Ap, that will let him use dragon forms more freely. And give all the battles a secondary use, since you can fight weak enemies to get all your AP back.

4.Remove the Level Based Damage:
this section is different from the others, as this does not check against defence for the base calculations, so even if you had 999 defence and the attacker had 0 attack, their level-based damage would always be the same. the defender's level is not taken into consideration for defence against it either, so if the attacker was level 10 and the defender was level 99, it would still do the same damage.

Note: this section only happens for physical attacks to YOUR side, the enemy side does not take level based damage. this is mainly used to give the enemy a slight advantage, and is why even Cedar Woods enemies will still be doing a few points of damage when they should be dealing 0-1.


5.Also, give some dragon forms more uses and fix some of the interactions.

a) For example, Pygmy is completely worthless:
|PYGMY | HP | Pwr | Def | Agl | Int | |
| |100% | 10% | 10% |300% |300% |
This dragon form had potential, It is very fast, and very intelligence. But its' defence and power were abysmal, I mean 10% of both the power and defence Ryu has got. To make it worse it had very few spells, and only was remotely useful. It also had no use for it's intelligence, since there are no skills that use that Stat in Pygmy's arsenal. I would make it into a caster with the same types of spells Nina learns. And buff the defence to 50%, so you won't die instantly and maybe hp to 150% of initial value.

b) Hybrids: I don't have much of a problem with them, except the fact that you can only have one form per two characters. It doesn't matter what genes you choose, depending on your team, it will always turn the same. It was a bad design, other than that no issues from me.

c)Wildfire: Now this form is quite unusual.

HP; Pwr; Def; Agl; Int Wildfire:
10%; 250%; 300%; 200%; 100%

As you can see, it has got some amazing stats but the problem is with the HP and manacost. It costs 27 AP to turn into one and 14 per turn to stay in this form. It wouldn't be bad, but because all enemies deal damage no matter the level it makes this form very situational. Either it needs more hp like 30% to 50% or we get rid of the pointless mechanic.


3.Conlussion:
Breath of Fire 3 is an amazing game, that suffers through some odd design choices that make it a bit less enjoyable than it could. I would love to see a proper remake like this and I would like to ask your opinion.

4.Scrapped Ideas and why:

a)-Now, I really wish there was more character development for all relationships and such and more interactions. I really liked, how in Breath of Fire 2 youcould romance either Katt or Nina. I do not want another character for romance, but I wish there were some more tender moments between Ryu and Nina or Momo and Ray.
Reasoning: Not necessary, should stay subtle
Last edited by Ediros on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:52 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby MrBaba » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:40 am

Hmm... I think my only real indepth responses I have for the moment is for the Intelligence stat.

Personally, I'm all for splitting it up much like Pokemon did for Special Attack and Special Defense. I'm not too fond of one stat being used for both offense and defense. That's just me and I do feel that attack magic in BoF3 tends to be worthless for me.

As for the Dragon transformations, I can kinda see the double Cost but lower upkeep thing working.

And I'm all for dropping that fucking Shisu minigame, thank you please!
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Re: Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby Ediros » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:23 am

MrBaba wrote:Hmm... I think my only real indepth responses I have for the moment is for the Intelligence stat.

Personally, I'm all for splitting it up much like Pokemon did for Special Attack and Special Defense. I'm not too fond of one stat being used for both offense and defense. That's just me and I do feel that attack magic in BoF3 tends to be worthless for me.

As for the Dragon transformations, I can kinda see the double Cost but lower upkeep thing working.

And I'm all for dropping that fucking Shisu minigame, thank you please!



Hmm..., Splitting it into two parts seems quite good to be perfectly honest.

However, I think I might have different solution.

If we want to keep things simple, then we can just remove part of the algorithm that lowers the damage due to defender's intelligence. That way, even Mjolinr can deal 1000 damage an attack.

However, then we would have to rebalance the defence against it. Especially in the early game, where many opponents can use quite powerful spells.

To compensate for that, we could have some early gear that gives a bit of protection against certain elements, like thunder talisman or something so that volts can not kill us in one turn.

b) Another solution is something, I came up with, but I am not convinced.

Well, we could keep the spells as they are and give intelligence more use in terms of defence and attack.

Well, basically to put it simply:

The new damage of the spell would be spell power * 2^(int/200).

New Defence against the spells could also scale with the intelligence. It would take the power of the spell and reduce it with similar algorithm. 2^(int/200).

So, let's say the opponent has got 0 int and Nina has got 1000 and Nina uses Mjolnir.

Magic Damage = 100*2^(5) = 100*32 = 3200. Unless, the opponent has got some sort of resistance.

c)And this one is something that I think would work nicely.

Basically split the intelligence into Might and Will. The will would give protection against spells, while also increasing chance for guts. They could have different Caps. Like Will at 100 and then it would give 100% chance for guts, while also reducing the damage of the spell. And we could make it so, the will is hard to increase, so you would not be able to max it, unless you grinded or something. (And of course, it wouldn't have given guts most of the enemies, with few exceptions).

Might would be responsible for magical damage and whether you can recover AP during the fight.

There, what do you think?
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Re: Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby Nina Windia » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:48 pm

Just an important note. In BoF 2 there is not a reall romance option. It's only hinted and you never know who Ryu choose (unlike other games -Not Breath of Fire- that focus more on romance). Both girls obviously like him a lot though.

I don't think the BoF game are ever that full with talking and interaction, and it's always subtle and hinted, but those games somehow still bring out their point. What I'm saying that sometimes you don't need to know a lot to feel exactly what the story wanted to tell you.

I think it was Ages that said, that you can clearly see how Ryu from BoF 3 feels about Nina, as his battle position change from scardy-cat to more "brave" warrior, the moment he needs to protects her.

So, all in all, this is the only game I like the hinted things more. I'm still annoyed by it, but I understand this is a general direction on this.

Plus it leaves tons of space for Fan-fic :grin:
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Re: Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby MrBaba » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:56 am

Again, personally I'm ok with rebalancing the magic and defenses with the new stats. That way, some enemies can be good with magic but bad at taking from it or vice-versa. Or a glass cannon that hits hard with physical and magical attacks, but lesser defenses.

The Might and Will concepts do fascinate me though. It sounds like it has potential.

Sorry, I just have Pokemon on the brain is all.
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Re: Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby Ediros » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:50 pm

I am going to add new stuff in new comments and then modify the core post after getting some feed back.

Now, there are other things that I would like to add.

1. I would rather stay away from BoF 4 cutscene attacks, including dragon forms. It reminds me way too much of Final Fantasy 7 and I do not think it suits BoF franchise.

2.I wouldn't mind having more enemies in game, that are not recolours of the previous enemies.

3.Also, I wish there were some new spells of different variety

4.a) Also, I know it sounds a bit broken, but I really wish some of the benefits from items like ivory charm actually did something in dragon form. Sure Spirit Ring works all the time, but I wish they gave protection against things like psionic and status. Having your myrmiddon paralyzed until your allies actually cast the spell is not really fun. They still would be suspectible to different kinds of damage and instant death attacks (with few exceptions), but they will not become confused immediately.

It always bothered me how crazy reliant you were on teammates, when enemy had any sort of status changes. And there are 3 forms that can offset that, most of which you get in late game. Those are Tiamat, Kaiser and Wildfire. One is good all rounder, but wildfire dies to quickly to physical attacks due to level based damage and Kaiser eats way too much mana in vanilla.

The best form overall is warrior or myrmiddon, which deal crazy damage, have got good agility, decent HP and defence. However, you can and will not be able to do much, if you get confused or worse paralyzed.

b)Second solution is just add more special forms that immune to stuff like this. For example force+trance+light - immune to status changes and psionic.

5.Oh and make the fairy village much easier to use. Seriously, I had enough of going back and forth the village and mobs so they could copy an item and then I would have to go through the same sequence at least 6 times. It was tedious, time consuming and had a type that you always noticed. Some of the interactions of fairy village could be a bit better, but I like it overall.

6.Just more dragon forms in general, with different purposes. Once you get to late game, you will only use warrior and tiamat depending on the circumstances. The rest of the forms become just not useful against many of the enemies or have got some annoying drawback, like being suspectible to status and psionic changes.

scrapped:

1. and I would rather stay away from combo system. It doesn't suit Breath of Fire franchise in my opinion and makes all the characters way too reliant on each other.
Last edited by Ediros on Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby MrBaba » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:06 pm

Okay, let me address a few things.

First, FF7 is a damn good game, but I do agree overly-long cutscenes in battle are a pain to deal with. And secondly, I loved the Combo system in IV, and I disagree that it doesn't suit the franchise, I feel it adds more to the teamwork of the party. I like it when the party members can work together and it'd be nice for me to not just rely on Ryu the entire game, plus it's cool for me to find new combinations.

Status effects are annoying yes, but I never noticed them being cripplingly so in BoF3. I will say I agree on less recolors and new enemies and new Dragon forms that feel useful.
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Re: Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby Ediros » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:30 pm

MrBaba wrote:Okay, let me address a few things.

First, FF7 is a damn good game, but I do agree overly-long cutscenes in battle are a pain to deal with. And secondly, I loved the Combo system in IV, and I disagree that it doesn't suit the franchise, I feel it adds more to the teamwork of the party. I like it when the party members can work together and it'd be nice for me to not just rely on Ryu the entire game, plus it's cool for me to find new combinations.

Status effects are annoying yes, but I never noticed them being cripplingly so in BoF3. I will say I agree on less recolors and new enemies and new Dragon forms that feel useful.



I suppose, the combo system is pretty good. I just disliked how in order to cast mjolnir you had to combine 3 different elements or something.

I would not scrap it, but I would make it so that if you cast different levels of fire spells the effects get amplified.

Basically keep bonus damage, but stay away from combining 3 spells to cast another spell.



2.The status changes weren't that crippling, because most of the bosses did not have many of them or enemies for that matter. After you reach certain point in game, you barely had to worry about status effects since they could be cured so easily.

So, I would just want more and different status changes and make it so paralyzing spells do not last, until you cure them or the end of the fight.

I remember testing Tiamat against chimera and I was stuck as dragon and wasted all my AP, due to that hack ability. (No other monster can do anything like this.)
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Re: Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby Ediros » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:08 am

Okay, so this time, I have got question for you.

What do you think of Master System in BoF 3?

Do you think it has got issues? What irked you the most about it?
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Re: Breath of Fire 3 Redux, how do you imagine it?

Postby Halabacatcha » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:18 am

I thought the master system was fine and suitable. I prefer the system of leveling up to learn skills instead of completing tasks or achievements. The only thing that could be changed for the better is possible reducing the amount of levels that are required to learn the skills, especially for masters later in the game.

The stat boosts and crutches were at a perfect level for shaping each character to their strengths.
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